The Mob Mentality Show

Is Scaling the Root of All Evil?

What happens when teams, codebases, or systems scale beyond their limits? In this thought-provoking episode of the Mob Mentality Show, we tackle this hyperbole: “Is scaling the root of all evil?” We explore how the challenges of scale—in team size, code complexity, and even societal structures—might be the culprit.
💡 Key Discussion Points:
Defining Scale Across Contexts: How does scale impact teams, classrooms, codebases, and more?
Innovation vs. Scale: Does scaling stifle the spread of good ideas, principles, and practices (e.g., in law, culture, or workplace norms)?
Interpersonal Challenges: Why do interpersonal problems grow exponentially in larger groups?
Code Quality and Scale: Does a larger codebase inherently lead to lower quality?
Focus and Attention: How does scale dilute individual and team focus? What happens to attention in scaled systems?
Second-Order Effects: Are rigid systems designed to handle scale unintentionally creating harmful side effects—and even side effects of those side effects?
Experimentation and Innovation: How do rigid systems inhibit experimentation, and why does this matter for growth and innovation?
Descaling as a Solution: Are the best solutions to scaling problems simply about reducing scale?
Inverse Conway Maneuver: Exploring this organizational design concept and its relevance to scaling.
Lessons from Coaching: How scaling challenges in youth baseball practices compare to leading software development teams.
🎯 Why You Should Watch/ListenThis episode touches on the consequences of uncontrolled growth, from technical issues in software engineering to cultural and organizational challenges. Learn why "descaling" could be the key to improving focus, quality, and innovation in your team or organization. Plus, discover how mobbing (collaborative software development) naturally counters the pitfalls of scaling.
📢 Don’t miss out! Subscribe now on your favorite platform: https://www.mobmentalityshow.com/
Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/YLeyRHcI-eI  

Mob Programming Meets Neuroscience: Exploring Brainwaves and Team Dynamics with Mike Bowler

Join us in this exciting episode of the Mob Mentality Show as we dive deep into the fascinating intersection of mob programming, neuroscience, and team dynamics with the insightful Mike Bowler! Mike brings over a decade of experience facilitating mob programming sessions across hundreds of teams and countless experiments. Whether you're a software developer, team coach, or collaboration enthusiast, this conversation will leave you with actionable insights and inspiring takeaways.🔍 What We Discuss:- A Different Approach to Facilitating Mob Programming Sessions- The Neuroscience of Psychological Safety and Mobbing- Team Flow States and Brainwave Activity- About Mike Bowler📢 Don’t Miss Out!Subscribe to the Mob Mentality Show on your favorite platform to learn more about innovative collaboration techniques and team success.
🔗 Find us here: https://www.mobmentalityshow.com
Video and show notes: https://youtu.be/okeAxvRggVc 

From Fear to Flow: Coaching Code Reading and Refactoring

What does it take to shift from fear to flow when reading and refactoring code? In this episode of the Mob Mentality Show, we dive deep into **"Paradigms of Code Reading"**, exploring the mindsets and techniques that shape how developers approach software understanding. Whether you're navigating legacy code or striving for clean, maintainable designs, this discussion offers actionable insights for individuals, pairs, and mobs alike.  
### What You’ll Learn in This Episode:  - **Code Reading Paradigms**: Discover the two ends of the spectrum:    - **Understand Every Line**: Keeping every detail in your head.    - **Extreme Abstraction Zen**: Focusing only on the current module or method.  - **AB Testing in Code Reading**: Insights from live experiments on how pairs and mobs read and understand code.  - **The Role of Trust**: How levels of trust in variable names, methods, and classes influence reading strategies.  - **Overcoming Fear and Skepticism**: What causes developers to ignore method names or distrust the knowledge baked into the code?  - **Cognitive Load and Flow Efficiency**: Learn how reducing cognitive load through small, fast tests can lead to more effective coding sessions.  - **Code Reading Clubs**  - **Coaching Toward Abstraction Zen**: Practical strategies to influence and support others in adopting better reading and refactoring paradigms.  - **Embracing Skeptics**: The value of radical candor, genuine curiosity, and visual aids like diagrams in addressing fear and building trust.  
### Key Takeaways:  - Refactoring starts with trust- Genuine curiosity can replace complaints, transforming how teams collaborate and learn.  - Drawing pictures and visualizing code can unlock new perspectives and improve comprehension.  - Skeptics are not obstacles—they're opportunities for deeper conversations and better design.  
Whether you're a seasoned software engineer, a pair programming enthusiast, or new to mob programming, this episode will provide you with practical tools and thought-provoking questions to enhance your coding practice.  
💡 **Want to stay ahead in your software journey?** Don't miss this deep dive into the cognitive, emotional, and technical aspects of reading code.  
🔗 **Subscribe to the Mob Mentality Show**:  Get notified as soon as this episode drops! Available on all major platforms:  👉 https://www.mobmentalityshow.com/  
🎧 Tune in to unlock new paradigms for code reading and refactoring. Let’s move from fear to flow together!Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/pXEp6jBeycs 

The Software Professional Resources Board

In this episode of the Mob Mentality Show, we dive into our Software Professional Resources Board, a dynamic Trello-based hub designed for software professionals looking to enhance their learning and collaboration in the industry. Join us as we share the board’s origin story and our journey in creating a comprehensive resource for everything from Extreme Programming (XP), mobbing, and leadership to cloud infrastructure, agile retrospectives, lean principles, and much more.
### What Makes Our Board Unique?
We start by exploring why we chose **Trello** for our resource board and how it has become a cornerstone for organizing, sharing, and discovering knowledge. With its flexibility, Trello enables us to create an easily navigable environment, where resources are not only organized but can also be searched, linked, and explored across various software domains. Our conversation touches on other similar boards we’ve seen, like our popular "Retrospective Techniques for Coaches, Scrum Masters, and Facilitators" board, as well as spin-offs we’ve created for specific topics.
### A Variety of Topics
Our board covers a broad spectrum of topics that are essential for modern software professionals, including **mobbing**, **refactoring**, **leadership**, **Infrastructure as Code (IaC)**, **agile** practices, and more. With resources curated for both technical and strategic learning, the board has become a go-to reference for articles, blog posts, videos, academic papers, book links, and quotes on various disciplines within software development.
### How We Use the Board for Continuous Learning
Discover how we leverage the board not only to organize information but to foster continuous learning. We discuss Chris’ “community-supported learning binges” and our process for capturing insightful book quotes and key takeaways, turning the board into a knowledge-sharing powerhouse for software teams and individual contributors alike.
### Refactoring the Mind: Evolving the Board to Stay Relevant
Our discussion also delves into the concept of "refactoring my mind by refactoring the board"—an idea about how reorganizing knowledge can improve our mental clarity and adaptability in complex projects. This involves regularly revisiting, reshaping, and expanding board content to reflect the latest insights and trends in software development, keeping it a living, breathing resource for our community.
### The Impact of Public Knowledge Sharing
One of the most inspiring aspects of this board is its role in **public knowledge sharing**. We highlight feedback from the community, stories of how others have used the board in their professional journeys, and our own experiences with learning in public. By sharing this resource openly, we invite others to benefit from it, create connections, and add to the body of knowledge that supports software development excellence.
Whether you’re a developer, coach, Scrum Master, or technical leader, this episode offers valuable insights into how to create and use a resources board to drive personal and team growth. Listen in for tips on organizing knowledge, capturing valuable insights, and using community feedback to make a resource board that truly enhances your software development journey.
### Topics Discussed:- The board's origin story and why we chose Trello- Organizing, searching, and sharing resources in Trello- Similar boards, including "Retrospective Techniques for Coaches, Scrum Masters, and Facilitators"- Variety of topics: mobbing, XP, leadership, IaC, agile, cloud, business, tech, retrospectives, and more- Types of media: articles, blogs, videos, book quotes, academic papers, and beyond- Spin-off boards and community learning sessions- Feedback from the community and lessons for public knowledge sharing
**Subscribe on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform to catch this episode and more!**Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/GmfWWiIeaVY 

Continuous Delivery to Cappuccinos: Jeff “Cheezy" Morgan’s Journey from Agile DevOps to Lean Cafés

In this Mob Mentality Show episode, we dive into the journey of Jeff “Cheezy” Morgan, a coach in Continuous Delivery (CD) and lean thinking. Known for his role in advocating for CD within companies, Jeff shares how his experiences with software development and his recent shift into the café business have shaped his philosophy on people and just-in-time. This discussion explores how Jeff’s approach to Agile and CD evolved, his journey into Extreme Programming (XP), and how mob programming impacted his perspective on teamwork and Continuous Integration (CI). 
**Jeff’s Agile and CD Journey**We start with Jeff’s introduction to Agile, discussing the early days of his career when dev practices didn’t include CD and the impact of adopting CD in high-stakes projects like Y2K. Jeff describes how learning from Thoughtworks influenced his views on XP and CD, and how he became an advocate, eventually taking CD to different organizations. He also shares what it was like discussing with Woody Zuill and Llewellyn Falco and reflects on the transformative role mob programming has played in his career.
**From Pairing to Mobbing**  For Jeff, mob programming was not initially appealing, but over time it became his preferred approach for helping teams. We explore how mobbing enhances CI, tightens communication, and fosters collective learning. Jeff explains how mobbing enables "just-in-time" discussions that align teams on what to build and how it allows real-time feedback on other team members’ learning. Jeff also examines the transition from pairing to mobbing, the challenges of mob programming with CI/CD, and why mobbing helps him “get the whole system in the room” for tackling complex problems.
**Quality Without QA?**  We dive into the controversial idea of achieving high quality without traditional Quality Assurance (QA). Jeff opens up about years spent wrestling with the role of QA in Agile/CD environments and shares experiments with “test-infected” developers—who took full ownership of quality. He reflects on the pitfalls of relying on “heavyweight” traditional QA processes and automated tests, which often create lean waste, add handoffs, and introduce brittle, flakey tests. Jeff and hosts Austin and Chris discuss whether “shift left” is merely a shift away from QA, the Deming Red Bead experiment’s relevance, and whether there’s a happy journey for QA professionals on CD teams.
**Applying Lean to Cafés**  Outside the tech world, Jeff has found a second passion—running cafés. We discuss how owning two cafés influenced Jeff’s perspective on Lean thinking and Agile principles. From supply chain issues during COVID to needing backup suppliers, Jeff discusses if “just-in-time” challenges in the café world mirror software development. He shares valuable insights about hiring, managing consistent delivery, and applying Lean principles to run a resilient business. Additionally, Jeff and Chris exchange stories on chip shortages and if Lean can help address real-world supply chain issues.
**More from Jeff**  Finally, we tackle some big questions: What does DevOps mean in today’s Agile world? Should “DevOps” be responsible for shielding organizations from developers? How does Test-Driven Development (TDD) factor into DevOps scripts, and can mobbing help break down silos that traditionally separated devs, ops, and QA?
Join us for this wide-ranging conversation with Jeff “Cheezy” Morgan to uncover actionable insights for anyone involved in Agile, CD, DevOps, or Lean. Whether you're in software, QA, or running a small business, this episode is packed with valuable takeaways on quality, learning, and resilience. 
Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/OJ5d6qLIQRY   

The Discovery of Ignorance in Product Development: Time for a Smarter Way to Deliver Customer Value with Gary Cohen

In this episode of the Mob Mentality Show, join us as we delve into "The Discovery of Ignorance in Product Development: Time for a Smarter Way to Deliver Customer Value" with our special guest, Gary Cohen. Drawing on his rich experience across diverse sectors—from government agencies to startups—Gary brings a wealth of insight into optimizing product discovery and delivery for true customer impact. 
### **Key Topics Explored: The Product Discovery and Delivery Intersection**Even if a team is familiar with the 80/20 rule (e.g., where 80% of features go unused), how does it determine the right 20% to deliver? Gary shares strategies to tackle this challenge, advocating for a shift from traditional roadmap fixation to embracing dynamic, continuous discovery that keeps customer value at the forefront. Together, we examine the effectiveness of "strict" roadmap discipline (the practice of adhering to set timelines and objectives) and if it becomes a barrier to true innovation and customer value.
We also briefly touch on the FAST framework and its relevance to product discovery, emphasizing how collective discovery through mobbing allows teams to stay closer to evolving customer needs. 
### **The Role of GenAI in Modern Product Development**Is AI is reshaping product discovery? We explore how GenAI can be a collaborative asset for mobs, not only for code development but also for bringing value by uncovering insights into customer behavior and streamlining feature prioritization. We compare "introverted" AI and "extroverted" AI in mob environments and discusses how developing refined AI inquiry skills is key to leveraging AI’s full potential. From training mobs in nuanced prompt engineering to using AI to help drive a more lean delivery, we share ways to maximize AI's impact while maintaining expert human oversight. 
### **Bootstrapping Pair and Mob Programming in Individualist Cultures**Transitioning to collaborative programming environments such as pair or mob programming can be challenging, especially in workplaces with a culture of individuality. We offer quick tips on how to bootstrap these methods, from creating a safe space for experimentation to aligning incentives via a peer promotion process. By using context sensitive analogies, how can we influence others in the org to consider jumping into the highly effective world of mob programming?
### **Unpacking Behavioral Expectations: A Smarter Approach to Product Decisions**Beyond the technical, we look at the behavioral side of product monitoring, asking, “What responses do we expect from our users?” Gary emphasizes the importance of behavioral prediction in discovery, cautioning against information bias and providing ways to gauge responses to feature experiments in real-time. We highlight the importance of monitoring usage data and what it reveals about customer engagement—whether a feature elicits a “wow” or a mere “meh.”
### **Takeaways for Product Managers, Engineers, and Innovators**From continuous discovery to leveraging the art of AI prompting, Gary Cohen’s insights provide actionable advice for product managers, developers, and cross-functional teams who are ready to rethink their approach to product development and delivery. Whether you're looking to reduce waste, increase customer value, or integrate mob programming and GenAI into your workflow, this episode offers some experiments to try in your journey to achieve product success.
Don’t miss this engaging discussion filled with actionable strategies, insightful anecdotes, and forward-thinking approaches to innovation! 
Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/od7E_M9B6gI  

Goal-Centricity and Beyond Test First with Kyle Griffin Aretae

In this exciting episode of the Mob Mentality Show, we are joined by Kyle Griffin Aretae to dive deep into the nuances of Test-Driven Development (TDD) and the crucial concept of "Goal-Centricity" in Agile practices. Kyle breaks down why TDD is so much more than just "test first" and challenges common misconceptions about this widely used development practice. If you're a software developer, Agile enthusiast, or just someone looking to refine your team's development processes, this episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss.
We explore why treating TDD as merely writing tests first misses the larger picture and how adopting a broader, more progressive approach can help your team build better, more maintainable software. Kyle shares his thoughts on the primary value proposition of TDD, focusing on **fast feedback loops** and the **refactor step** at least every 5 minutes. He explains how smaller, healthier TDD cycles allow developers to stay nimble and avoid the trap of feedback loops that last 30 minutes or more. Thus, when fast feedback loops with constant refactoring are in place as the foundation, then the "test first" aspect of TDD really shines. 
Kyle also sheds light on common pitfalls, such as the misunderstanding of what it means to "do TDD" when developers claim they have 8 unit tests on 50,000 lines of code. We discusses the difference between **Cargo Cult XP (Extreme Programming)** and the real deal, as well as the critical role of **decoupling code** so tests can run in 5 seconds or less. 
A key takeaway from this episode is the impact of **social programming**, TDD, and **CI/CD (Continuous Integration/Continuous Delivery) pipelines**. We explain the importance of the "Pipeline First" principle when writing new code.
We then dive into Kyle's most controversial take on TDD: the idea that creating a **mini-plan** (a rough roadmap of what to do next) before writing tests might actually be more beneficial than strictly adhering to "test first." This, Kyle argues, leads to more robust code when integrated into strong social programming practices. We also touch on the application of **Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs** to TDD and the importance of satisfying basic development needs (like fast feedback and clean code) before tackling more complex issues.
The episode continues with a discussion on the intersection of **Goal-Centricity** and Agile. Kyle questions whether Agile methods are effective without first agreeing on a clear goal. We explore scenarios where goals are unclear or where methods are imposed without understanding the desired outcomes. Kyle shares a fascinating example of a code freeze during "Black Friday" and the unintended consequences of such decisions. We also reference a powerful quote by **Deming**, "A goal without method is cruel," explaining how the opposite can be just as problematic.
Throughout the conversation, we dive into the importance of aligning goals between management and development teams, avoiding the common trap of blindly delivering fixed requirements for bonuses, and how real Agile success comes from alignment on solving customer problems, not just ticking off tasks. Kyle emphasizes the need to start with a clear understanding of what you're trying to achieve before applying any method, whether it's Scrum or TDD.
Don't miss out on this thought-provoking episode filled with actionable insights on TDD, Agile, and effective software development. Subscribe today and tune in to hear Kyle Griffin Aretae's unique take on how to elevate your development practices!
Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/S7K8lSibmII  

From Code to Culture: Chesterton’s Fence vs. Five Monkeys Experiment

In this episode of the Mob Mentality Show, we explore the profound concept of "Chesterton’s Fence" and how it applies to software development and organizational culture. Chesterton’s Fence refers to the idea that before removing or changing a rule, tradition, or practice, one must first understand why it was put in place. We dive into this principle, discuss real-world coding examples, and contrast it with the famous "Five Monkeys Experiment," which explores how behavior and practices can irrationally persist even when the original purpose is forgotten.
🔑 **Key Topics Discussed**:
- **Chesterton's Fence**: Learn the origin and meaning behind Chesterton's classic quote: "The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, 'I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away.' To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: 'If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.'" Discover why this concept is critical in both software development and team culture. 
- **Applying Chesterton’s Fence to Code**: We walk through a real-world example of legacy product code. Should you refactor, delete, or preserve existing code? Explore how understanding the original intent of code, especially in larger systems, can prevent costly mistakes.
- **When to Delete Unit Tests**: What happens when a unit test no longer seems relevant or helpful? We explore how the Chesterton's Fence principle applies to testing, discussing whether old tests should be removed or maintained, and how to balance thoroughness with agility.
- **Five Monkeys Experiment**: Chris Lucian shares insights from the famous psychological experiment that demonstrates how practices can become entrenched even when the original purpose is long forgotten. This complements the discussion of Chesterton’s Fence by examining how some habits and behaviors persist without rationale. We discuss strategies for assessing when it's time to dig deeper or when it's acceptable to move forward without full understanding. While it's important to understand why something exists, can too much time be spent analyzing before making changes? 
- **Domain-Driven Design (DDD) and Behavior-Driven Development (BDD)**: We explore how principles from DDD and BDD can help teams bake the purpose and intent directly into code, making it easier to understand why a particular rule, function, or test exists in the first place.
By the end of the episode, you’ll gain a deeper understanding of how Chesterton’s Fence and the Five Monkeys Experiment apply to your day-to-day decisions in software development, testing, and even team dynamics. Whether you’re dealing with legacy code, outdated tests, or long-standing team practices, this episode provides practical insights to help you make thoughtful, informed decisions.
🎥 **Subscribe and Stay Updated**: Don't miss this insightful episode! Be sure to subscribe to the Mob Mentality Show on your favorite podcast platform or YouTube. 
Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/a2bdNOsM_r0 

Is All CD/CD Pipeline Code Instant Legacy Code?

In this Mob Mentality Show episode, Chris Lucian and Austin Chadwick dive into the complexities of modern CI/CD (Continuous Integration / Continuous Delivery) pipeline code and IaC (Infrastructure as Code), exploring why these critical components of software delivery often exhibit the same problematic attributes as classic Legacy Code. Drawing inspiration from Michael Feathers' seminal book *Working Effectively with Legacy Code*, they analyze the paradox of cutting-edge DevOps practices turning into technical debt almost as soon as they're written.
### Episode Highlights:- **CI/CD Pipeline Code and Legacy Code Parallels**: Why does so much CI/CD and IaC code resemble legacy code? Despite being crucial for continuous delivery and automation, CI/CD pipelines can become fragile, difficult to change, and filled with technical debt if not handled carefully. Austin and Chris discuss why this phenomenon is so common and what makes the codebases for CI/CD pipelines especially prone to these issues.  - **“Edit and Pray” vs. TDD Confidence**: Do your CI/CD changes feel like a roll of the dice? Chris and Austin compare how the lack of test-driven development (TDD) practices in CI/CD code leads to “edit and pray” scenarios. They discuss the confidence that TDD brings to traditional application development and how applying similar principles could reduce fragility in CI/CD code.
- **The Pitfalls of YAML in IaC**: Is the problem inherent to YAML? The hosts explore whether the complexity of YAML syntax and configurations is the root cause of the brittleness often found in IaC. They provide real-world examples of IaC configurations that suffer from high cyclomatic complexity—making them feel more like full-blown applications rather than simple configuration files.
- **Fear of Change in CI/CD and IaC**: Why are developers often afraid to modify CI/CD pipeline code or IaC? Chris and Austin highlight the psychological aspects of fragile infrastructure—where fear of unintended consequences and lack of fast feedback loops result in slower iterations and more bugs. They explore why these codebases are often re-written from scratch instead of extended and safely enhanced.
- **Reducing Fragility through Experiments**: The episode features a recent experiment where CI/CD pipeline code was developed in Python using TDD and separation of concerns. This case study reveals the pros and cons of less YAML and a shift towards more code-based "configurations." Could this approach be a solution to reducing brittleness in IaC and pipelines?
- **A World Without Brittle Pipelines?**: Imagine a world without fragile pipelines and brittle configuration files. Chris and Austin discuss strategies to move towards more resilient infrastructure and how teams can focus on improving feedback loops, reducing complexity, and enabling safer, faster CI/CD iterations.
Join Chris and Austin as they explore these and other crucial topics that are impacting DevOps teams around the world. Whether you're struggling with high bug rates in your pipelines, slow feedback loops, or simply want to better understand how to manage the complexity of modern infrastructure, this episode is for you!
Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/3Cs-j055b9g 

The Dark Side of Metrics: Goodhart’s Law, Cobra Effect, and the Metrics That Damage Teams

In this episode of the Mob Mentality Show, we explore the unintended consequences and pitfalls of relying too heavily on metrics with a dive into Goodhart’s Law. If you’ve ever wondered why well-intentioned measurements can backfire and cause harmful behaviors in software development, leadership, and beyond, then this episode is for you!
**What is Goodhart’s Law?**Goodhart’s Law states that “When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.” This means that when metrics are used as goals, people tend to optimize for the metric itself rather than the underlying value or outcome it represents. 
**How Can Metrics Destroy Collaboration?**Chris shares an intriguing story about two teams set up to compete against each other, only to find that the focus on “winning” metrics led to a breakdown in communication and collaboration. Instead of fostering teamwork, the metrics created silos and a toxic environment. 
**Examples of Bad Metrics in Software Development**We go through specific metrics that have led to bad behaviors in software teams, such as:- **Test Coverage Metrics**: How a narrow focus on test coverage can lead to tests that do nothing but improve the metric, without actually asserting anything or improving software quality.- **Points-per-Person Metrics**: Why measuring productivity at an individual level (e.g., story points completed per person) damages team dynamics and led to cutting corners. 
**Are There Any Good Metrics?**Is it possible to use metrics without falling into the Goodhart’s Law trap? We discuss whether certain collective measures like **DORA Metrics** can provide value without the same issues.
**Metrics for Conversations, Not Evaluation**One key takeaway is the distinction between metrics that trigger healthy conversations vs. those used to make evaluative judgments of a team from a distance. When metrics become evaluative rather than formative, they risk distorting behaviors and eroding psychological safety.
**Leading Measures vs. Lagging Measures**We also touch on insights from *The 4 Disciplines of Execution* and its perspective on leading measures vs. lagging measures. 
**Managing Teams and Incentives at Scale**Finally, we tackle the challenge of managing people and teams at scale. Incentive structures that overemphasize metrics can lead to counterproductive behaviors, burnout, and loss of motivation. We emphasize the anti-pattern of metrics-driven management without side-by-side in-context coaching.
If you’ve ever experienced the pitfalls of metrics-driven environments or are seeking ways to improve measurement practices in your teams, this episode is packed with lessons learned, cautionary tales, and actionable advice. Don’t miss it!
Video and Show Notes: https://youtu.be/MiySzmDRYA8